Transcript: Dr Margie Warrell on Courage, Overcoming Fear, and the Cost of Playing It Safe
And We're Rolling with Stephanie Hunt
STEPH: Dr Margie Warrell, thank you so much for coming on. This is wonderful. I think we met maybe ten years ago at Channel 7 when I was running Weekend Sunrise. I think you might have been promoting a book, and your bio came across my desk and I read your background and I was like: holy moly, we need this superstar on our show and also as a contributor. So it's been quite a long friendship that we have.
MARGIE: It has, Steph. And I remember so clearly doing that segment on Sunrise with you and Sam Armitage. I remember afterwards saying to you: I can talk on other things too. And you said: awesome. And so began regularly showing up on Sunrise, which was fantastic because I'd only moved back to Australia from the US twelve months earlier. And I also saw that you're a good country girl, so I instantly loved you.
STEPH: You started out working in corporate before going back to study psychology at Deakin Uni and beginning a new career in coaching and leadership. What made you shift careers?
MARGIE: The short, succinct way to say it is: I was living in Papua New Guinea. I had struggled with bulimia through my teens and it flared up again. I was doing enormous self-reflection and inner work on myself. And at the same time, living in Port Moresby is a very intense environment, as you would imagine. I found myself the confidant of a lot of people who were struggling with their own stuff. And I was like: I really want to help people deal with those inner demons — beliefs, fears that often sabotage our own happiness, our own success, our relationships. I had to deal with my own stuff, and as I was trying to help others deal with theirs, I thought: I need a bigger toolkit. I didn't have any training, and hence going back to study psychology.
That was also a catalyst because I was in an armed robbery as well, and I lost a baby at five months pregnant. I just was like: I'm going to go back and study next year because that's meaningful to me. And that set me off. Obviously I had no idea it would lead down the path I've been on ever since — that was about 24 years ago. I could not have imagined where it's taken me, Steph, but it's been one very interesting journey.
STEPH: It's incredible — you've built an empire with your podcast, your books and your speaking. Why are you so drawn to the notion of courage and being brave?
MARGIE: I think growing up in the Aussie bush — my own horizon extended a little further than the back paddock of our dairy farm — and having to overcome and defy my own self-doubt, my own fear of being found out, not being good enough, not being smart enough, educated enough, pretty enough, blah blah blah enough. I think a lot of Australians really struggle with daring to do too much because of that tall poppy syndrome — it still sits there in the background and holds a lot of people back in subtle, subtle ways.
For me, just daring to do what really lit me up and to live a big life has required courage. It's required breaking ranks with my comfort zone and the known and the familiar so many times. And having lived and worked around the world now over the last 25, 30 years, I really feel strongly that the biggest thing that holds us back is our fear. It shows up in different ways — fear of not being good enough, not being worthy enough. It drives people to play it too safe. Obviously the title of one of my books is Don't Stop Playing Safe. It also drives people to try and prove themselves, and ego runs amok, and actually all of it keeps us from really thriving.
So what I'm about is helping people unpack and peel off the layers of fear so that they can really thrive. And I believe — I was raised in a big Catholic family, not that I'd call myself a Catholic anymore — I do believe that all of us are here for a purpose and we all have gifts to share in the world. Sometimes our biggest hardships and heartaches can actually point us in the direction of whatever that is. Helping people not be defined by their past and their problems, and really define themselves — that all drives me. I feel really passionate around it, almost like a sense of calling.
STEPH: Through your work you've spoken to some big names — Sir Richard Branson, for example. What did you learn from him?
MARGIE: He was awesome and it was an incredible opportunity to spend time with him on his island — tough gig, I have to say. I loved his authenticity. People might go: oh, is he up himself? He was actually incredibly down to earth and very purpose-driven. Maybe as he's got older, what lights the fire in his belly has morphed and evolved, but he's really driven to make a difference and leave a legacy. He's very curious — not like, oh, I know better than other people because I'm this multi-billionaire. He was really curious to learn from everybody there. I was actually there with a group with Business Chicks — Emma Isaacs out of Australia — and he's just someone who is humble and curious and purpose-driven and willing to be a risk taker, but willing to risk failure and then learn from it. Extract everything you can from failure, and embrace failure.
And that's something I think all of us can benefit from a lot. It's not about being reckless and stupid, but how much does our fear of not doing something perfectly, of not being super successful, of not coming out the gate landing a perfect ten, hold us back from even trying? I think there's a gender element there too. Women even more so struggle with thinking we have to have it all be perfect the first time. The more we can embrace doing things imperfectly, making imperfect decisions, doing a lousy first draft — that actually gives us permission to try more, learn more, and ultimately succeed faster, so long as we don't let the failures define us and don't over-personalise it.
And as a parent too — I know you've got two littlies, and there was a period when I had four kids five and under — done is better than perfect. My God, if I tried to be a perfect parent, I would never have pursued a career at the same time. By going: you know what, I'm just going to give it a go, try my best, see how this lands — that shifts our emotional landscape. We go: oh, what else could I try? It keeps us from living in this very limited zone of: well, what do I know I can't fail at?
STEPH: So let's get down to the nuts and bolts. You did a great TEDx talk on how to be brave and the fact that there's no real shortcut to courage. What are your best tips for feeling really emboldened and brave when you really don't feel like that?
MARGIE: Firstly, I think embrace discomfort as a prerequisite to thriving as a human being. We cannot grow and learn and thrive if we're living in the safety zone, the comfort zone. We have to continually step out of it and try new things.
Secondly, recognise that courage and bravery isn't some virtue endowed on the lucky few. It's actually a skill, and like all skills — like learning to play the piano or ride a horse — you can get better at it with practice. I meet a lot of people who say: I'm just not that confident, I wish I was more confident and then I would do that. If only I believed in myself more. And I say: if you're waiting until you're confident and believe in yourself 200%, you can spend your whole life in a waiting room. So don't wait for courage. Just act with it. Train the brave — it's like a muscle. Every day do something a little bit uncomfortable.
I also think stepping into the shoes of your future self — putting yourself in the shoes of you one year, five years, twenty-five years from now, or at the end of your life, and looking back and asking: what does my future self want me to know? What is it I might regret not doing? Because we often discount the cost of inaction. We discount the cost of indecision and procrastination and go: oh, I'll just put it off. But anything in our lives that isn't working or is making us miserable doesn't just get better. It usually just gets worse. And it's not like it's easy to make a change a year from now. Do it now — because we spare ourselves so much suffering and open up so many doors of opportunity simply by being in action and taking it, even when we're not quite sure.
Don't underestimate the cost of timidity. I really believe that. Timidity has a steep invisible tax on our lives. Over-cautiousness — oh, I'm just going to wait until I know what I'm doing, just sit this one out. Well, there's a cost to that. You don't always know because it's not sudden, it's not dramatic, but there is a cost. You see people stuck in jobs, relationships, careers for years, decades, sometimes their whole life because it's all too hard, too scary — and they miss out on realising.
I'm sure you've met people who've made big changes that were really hard, and they'll say: it's the best thing I ever did and I just wish I'd done it sooner.
STEPH: You can lose years of your life just waiting for everything to be perfect.
MARGIE: Exactly. I caught up with some people on the weekend who've only ever travelled overseas once. They were talking about travel and I was sharing some of my travels in Africa or the Middle East, and they were like: wow, I can't believe you did all that. And I'm like: well, you don't have to start in Egypt. You could just go to Vietnam once things open up, or Thailand. These aren't dangerous countries, and they were just quite blinkered in their thinking. We can stick it out and suck it up in situations that make us miserable, but we only become more complicit in our own suffering. So take ownership of your life. Be the CEO of your own life. Don't wait for someone else to fix your problems. Don't wait for permission. Don't wait for a crystal ball. Make the best decision you can now and move toward whatever gives you energy.
It's so easy to settle for things that suck the energy from us, or stay in relationships — sometimes even friendships — with people that suck the energy from us. Own what you're choosing.
STEPH: I feel like there's a lot of fear at the moment, off the back of COVID. Job layoffs, keeping families together, kids, money and finance. How do we work around that and still get to live our dreams?
MARGIE: COVID has taken an incredible toll on many people. I know in Australia it was a different experience — you're in Sydney, I've got family in Melbourne, right now I'm in DC but was in Singapore. People have experienced this really differently — incredible fear, ongoing uncertainty, not being able to make plans, the disruption, jobs. So for anyone who's struggling right now: be kind to yourself and cut yourself some slack, because you've been through one hell of a time and we're still coming out of it. We're going to see the impact on mental health for a long time to come.
However — don't give the pandemic the power to keep you from moving forward in your life. There's a concept called post-traumatic growth. Studies found that after trauma — and COVID has been traumatic for many people in different ways — we can actually use those traumatic experiences as a catalyst to live more meaningful lives, to have more purpose, to feel more connected with others. Not to have these terrible events ruin our lives, but to have them actually help us live more meaningful ones. So look for the lessons. Don't miss the lessons. Don't just go: oh, it was a terrible thing. Go: how can I reframe it? What did I learn? How did I grow? How can I take that forward and bounce forward and grow more? It doesn't deny the hardship or the heartache, but what's the positive I can take from it?
I wrote about this in my book You've Got This, which came out right as the pandemic was starting and suddenly all my plans turned pear-shaped. My husband got COVID — he was in hospital and quarantined for a month in Singapore. And I shared in that book: sometimes those storms that we think are ruining our path are actually just revealing our path. It's easy to focus on what's wrong and what's missing and how it shouldn't be this way. But instead, reshift your focus and go: well, what's right? What do I have? What have I learned? What can I do right now? The more we focus on what's within our control and what the opportunities are, the more empowered we are. We even see opportunities we'd otherwise miss because we're too busy focusing on the deficits. What we focus on expands.
STEPH: Use it as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
MARGIE: You know, that phrase once-in-a-lifetime. We're all actually having a once-in-a-lifetime adventure and none of us are getting out of it alive. We all get a different hand of cards. Some people seem to get a pack of aces and others seem to get a bunch of duds and it's like: it's not fair, how come that person over there? We get caught in comparisons. But comparisons just make us suffer more. As they say, comparison is the thief of joy. Don't look around at what other people are doing or what they have. Go: how do I run my best race? How do I play my deck of cards as well as I possibly can?
If you look at people who live really amazing lives, it's not that they're the luckiest, it's not that they were born with a silver spoon, it's not that everything went perfectly. It's that in the midst of the shitty times they were like: how do I make the best of this? That's not toxic positivity — it's not denying the crappy stuff. But don't stay dwelling in it. It's so easy to get stuck in the shoulda, woulda, coulda and who's to blame — my ex, my kids, my boss, the company. But it just leaves you stuck and suffering in your own mud.
Let the waters settle a bit as we're coming out of COVID. But don't spend too long looking backwards. Go: okay, moving forward — what am I going to make of it? Shake it off, move forward, bring it on.
STEPH: Can we talk about appearing on television, doing a live media spot, or speaking on stage? This can be terrifying and very intimidating. What's your process, or what would you say to a friend or client who has to do this?
MARGIE: The reason it's terrifying is because we're focused on how we might be perceived. We feel really exposed. Oh my God, I'm going to be judged — on a stage or in front of a television camera. What will people think of me? Do I look right? Am I wearing the right clothes? Am I going to say the right things? And it's all about us. It's our ego that creates that terror. That's just what it is to be human. I'm not saying ditch the ego — we all have one, we all like to look good and don't like to lose face. But the more you can set your intention on how what you have to say will serve the people listening to you, the better.
Whether it's television or keynote speaking — and I've obviously done a lot of both — my best space is always when I've taken a moment just before I speak and asked: what's my highest intention here? For media, maybe it's a two-and-a-half-minute live spot on Sunrise. You've got a very short amount of time to convey something and you have two hours worth of content to share. So what is the highest intention? What is the core message I'm trying to share here? And as a keynote speaker — sometimes I've got 30 minutes, sometimes an hour — what is the key thing I'm trying to impart? Maybe it's information I want to share, maybe I want to inspire them to take an action they hadn't taken before. When we're coming from that place of service — it's not about me, it's who am I here to serve and how — that helps park the ego and puts us in the right headspace. And heartspace.
There are three aspects I think about. I actually did a blog post and a podcast episode on this: how to speak with presence and authority. One — what's your focus, your intention? Who do you want to serve? Why are you here? Two — what's the story you're telling yourself? I've got this. I have important information to share. People need to hear what I have to say. I am absolutely worthy to be speaking right now. Three — our physiology. Holding yourself like you've got this. Our physiology is important when you're doing a live cross or sitting in a studio or standing on a stage. Stand tall in your value. Have your physiology reflect the psychology you want. They're self-reinforcing — for better or worse. So make sure you're feeling powerful and purposeful. Stand tall and step into that posture and expression that reflects the words you want to share.
STEPH: Do you still have moments where you feel a bit nervous or have a confidence slump?
MARGIE: Pretty much 100% of the time, Steph.
STEPH: I love your honesty.
MARGIE: In fact, the TED Talk — I was really nervous. It wasn't even a big crowd, only about 30 or 40 people because of COVID. I've spoken in front of far larger audiences, but I guess it was because I knew it was going to be uploaded. I was trying to be in the right headspace, but still I was nervous. I got up on stage and I actually forgot a chunk of what I was going to share around the neuroscience of risk-taking and decision-making. I went off script and just spoke from the heart. I haven't actually seen it yet — I'm waiting for it to be uploaded to the TED platform, maybe by the time your podcast goes out. I'll share a link if it is. But yeah, super nervous.
And having got back onto stages in the last two months here in the US, I was even more nervous because it had been twenty months since I'd spoken. I was putting my training wheels on and getting back into the groove.
But nerves aren't bad. Nerves tell you that you're alive, that you're on centre court in your life, centre stage. I think reframing the nerves rather than going: oh I'm terrified — instead going: I'm growing into my potential. I'm doing what I feel called to do. I'm embracing these butterflies as part and parcel of what it takes to live my purpose and grow. It mightn't remove the butterflies, but it can get them flying in some semblance of formation. Embrace the nerves. Breathe in courage, breathe out fear. Breathe in purpose, breathe out pride. Move forward.
The nerves don't necessarily all go away. A pianist wouldn't be at their best if they were asleep five minutes before stepping onto the stage at Carnegie Hall. And I wouldn't have been a reasonable guest on Sunrise back in the day if I was having a nap two minutes before going on. Those nerves are there because I want to do well. Because I care. They're a sign that I care.
STEPH: I did a TEDx talk a few years back too — I was pregnant with Matilda, my second-born, and I had the worst head cold. I couldn't take Sudafed or anything because I was pregnant. Same deal — standing on that little red circular carpet. Did you have that too?
MARGIE: Yes! Yes I did.
STEPH: It was a tiny, really kind audience — it was at a school and I was chatting about lessons I'd learned from living with remote tribes in Africa. I knew exactly what I was talking about, but holy hell. I think because it was TED, I was like: I want to be Brené Brown, but I'm not going to be Brené Brown. All this crazy ego going through my head. Whereas you could just walk onto that stage without any of that and just chat to those people, no problems.
MARGIE: Our mind plays funny tricks. I once heard Richie Benaud — who had an incredibly long career as a sports commentator — being interviewed after he'd retired. And he said one of the hardest things of being a great commentator is simply to be yourself. And I actually felt like hugging him through the airwaves, because someone like him — an icon with decades of experience — was saying: one of the hardest things is just to be yourself. Not to be a commentator, not to be an expert, but just be yourself.
And it gave me some solace because I talk about being authentic, just letting yourself be who you are. And yet at times I find myself trying to sound smart, or sound funny, or sound real. Whenever you're trying to sound anything, therefore you're not being yourself. If I'm trying to be myself, then I'm not myself, you know what I mean? Sitting there with a glass of wine with you, I'm not trying to be on-air. I'd like to tell you I had it completely nailed, and I don't, Steph. But I'm more mindful of how difficult it can sometimes be to simply just be ourselves and not be trying to prove anything, or please, or posture.
STEPH: Final question. You're so prolific and brilliant at writing — how many books?
MARGIE: I've written five books and co-authored a couple of others. Some people have written 55, so I've written five.
STEPH: Any tips on being really productive, pumping out content with meaning — plus four kids, plus life?
MARGIE: Give yourself permission to write a lousy first draft. That's super important. Then schedule blocks of time, protect your time, guard your time — even if it's short blocks, even if it's just an hour three times a week. Maybe you can go off and live in a cabin in the woods for six months, awesome, but you probably can't if you've got kids. I had four kids under seven when I wrote my first book, and I'd do it in nap times. As soon as they were half down or I had one in front of The Wiggles, I'd go into a room and try to do 45 minutes. Forty-five minutes five days a week — at the end of the year you've done a lot more than if you hadn't.
These days I write best in the morning. I'm most creative then. I'll exercise and then go out and sit in a cafe with a latte and just sit and write, even if it's just for a couple of hours. That gets stuff done. Think about when your best creative time is, and guard it. Turn off your phone. I don't do coffees in the mornings as much as possible — that's my writing time.
And write often, because you just get better at it the more you do it. Don't try to write War and Peace. Don't try to be Elizabeth Gilbert or Brené Brown. Just write the best you can. If you're really called to write something, don't try to be brilliant. Just try to get it out.
STEPH: You eat fear for breakfast, I reckon, Dr Margie.
MARGIE: Oh, look, I just want to be clear, Steph — I haven't silenced that little voice in my head. As I wrote in You've Got This, Doubt FM plays. It's there. I've just got better at going: I am not giving you the power to call the shots. And really listening to that voice of the true self that goes: this is what I want to do, this is what I need to do — and just ploughing through and doing it.
STEPH: Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for chatting, thanks for being a great friend of more than ten years. I look forward to the day our paths cross in person again.
MARGIE: And I just want to say thank you to you. You were awesome and incredibly supportive of me as I landed back in Australia for the five years I was living there. You were just such a gem of a person to work with. If every producer was as awesome as you, television land would be a different place.
STEPH: Oh, thank you. I'll see you soon!
MARGIE: Thanks, Steph. Bye-bye.
And We're Rolling is hosted by Steph Hunt and produced by Stephanie Hunt Media and Habari Productions. If you need help with media training or your next on-camera appearance, head to stephaniehuntmedia.com. If you like this podcast, please share it with everyone you know, and follow, rate and review. Until next time, thanks for listening.
